Seas balance discussion

[ParaworldFan]

I wanted to make a discussion because I think seas, have weak spots and they are really hurtable.
Let’s list them:
Seas_titan is really weak against every titan, while costs as usual titan. It have low damage, no armor (10 with upgrade, which lowest stat) not strong abilities, and they usuallly always loose to dragon clan because of nets, and dustriders because of stun effect.
Also titan don’t have range attack (mg attack have very small range) and no splash or armor piercing. As well as burning and poison.
Let’s move to, seas animals.
All animals, except maybe gigantosaurus and polakanthus, have no armour, which makes them really first killable and weak. I know maybe original armor (40, 30) is too high, but maybe 20 (without upgrade) will be good, or atleast 10 and this could be increased with upgrade.
I know that seas have the strongest vehicles, and that’s probably why all other units, except infantry are weak, but...
This robots incredible high cost, and slow producing, so this only helps if player have enough resources. Without robots, seas not able to protect themselves against titans, or other armoured animals of level 3.
Dragon clan titans always overpower seas titans because of nets and range attack, that higher than robots ones.
Also I noticed one uncomfortable thing, tell me if I wrong or it’s just bug, but while I select group of my executioners and click on their abilities with lots of time by holding ctrl, it doesn’t activate all executioners abilities, it just activates one and deactivates it.
Speaking btw about the ability burning damage, it’s highly damaging themselves, so without proper healing executioners fastly dying that from enemies titans, my suggestion is reduce damage from fire done by this ability.

[MrMorgana]

Burning state's self-damage can be reduced i think.
That about executioner ability i don't fully understand. Which ability are you talking about to be exact? Executioner has the one, which makes enemy units aggro only on them (but that has no manual deactivation). MKII has the burning state, which can be turned off. And as far as i remember you need to hold Shift key and click on ability to activate for all of them at the same time, but it depends on your client settings.
i partially agree that seas animals are kinda weak, but maybe we should increase their base hitpoints instead of armor, because that one is better (armor can still be neglected by armor-piercing weapons and poison, whereas having more hitpoints is good in every situation).
Not sure about seas titan, although it could get armor piercing base attack (poison doesn't really fit it or SEAS in general, burning damage is only good against buildings). The titan's mg nests could get slightly increased attack range, but those weapons can already be upgraded in different ways (+10 range, +10% damage, +20 armor piercing, and poison for Kleeman lvl4 bonus).

[ParaworldFan]

I was talking about burning state. By holding key for activating this ability in group of MKs don’t work for unknown reason.
Not sure increasing hit points slightly will help. Yes, armor piercing still problem for armor, but remember not much units have it, and infantry and some weak units of level 2 will not be able to kill them, while just a lot of hp, don’t solve the problem. I think armor piercing will not be much helpful for seas titans, I think they need armor, because every titan have it, and seas titan really weak and his abilities not as good as the Dustriders one, so I think armor suit perfectly. Like for Norsemen.
I also would suggest to reduc range attack for seas_sniper 100 range attack (110 with Tarna level 5) is really high. It’s beats even the brachiocatapults. I think it will be good to reduce it up to 70 with upgrades (80 with TARNA) but leave their vision range on their current stats. Upgraded snipers is really can destroy economic, killing weak dinosaurs and workers, while even sitting on the base, if map is small. I don’t talk about telescope which increases units vision, which will make them with 110 range able to attack almost everything, and heroes. It’s much dangerous and annoying than hu_killers and aje_assasins with invisible mod.

[Scrat]

Burning state's self-damage can be reduced i think.

How much HP per second does he currently lose while burning and how much HP per second can a Medic heal? Does Medic healing stack, do two Medics healing the same target heal it twice as fast as one Medic?
Maybe the Executioner losing the same amount of HP/sec that one Medic can would be good.

Not sure about seas titan, although it could get armor piercing base attack (poison doesn't really fit it or SEAS in general, burning damage is only good against buildings).

SEAS titan has poison attack because SEAS titan is that poison-mouthed Moby Dick of a tyrannosaurus that's used in the arena. His mouth is full of poison, it would not be realistic for him to not have a poison attack. Plus, poison affects every enemy unit except for vehicles, and since most vehicles are operated by the SEAS, them being the tribe with the venomous titan is actually quite the bonus.


20 base armor for triceratops cyborgs seems OK with me. They are most comparable to NM rhinos after all.
I vaguely remember calculating stuff like this... Completely with HP, armor, damage, damage per minute, did those calculations prove to be insufficient?

[Zidell]

I think poison visual effect is disabled and there is no poison damage

[ParaworldFan]

Burning state's self-damage can be reduced i think.

How much HP per second does he currently lose while burning and how much HP per second can a Medic heal? Does Medic healing stack, do two Medics healing the same target heal it twice as fast as one Medic?
Maybe the Executioner losing the same amount of HP/sec that one Medic can would be good.

Remember that executioners all level 3 and as I mentioned before, seas don’t have a lot of strong units thanks to new balance, so mk executioners and expo flamers are only options, since titans useless and level 2 units only good is infantry and polakanthuses, stingers. Infantry dies from splash attacks even with strongest 80 armor and Cole additional hp while being fully upgraded, polakanthuses as default melee combat, so they get in traps and get splash damage from seismo bombs and scorpions, and taking two medics, which is infantry, means take two less executioners, and means army will be weaker. And everyone knows that medic is dangerous Healer, so it would be first to kill target. And I am not sure it’s strong enough so it can heal all executioners, while each of them do splash damage with their burning state and this thing can kill medic if it’s get close, and it will. Maybe option is to put the medics on CBT-T 1000, but it’s one more 3 level unit. Because as I mentioned, it’s hard to control polakanthuses to stay with executioners and not go in rush attack. So, in my opinion, executioner without mini gun much effective than, my, cause it deals armor piercing and it’s close combat, so it’s much effective against D.C. titans.

[Scrat]

mate, executioners are level 4 units

if the poison damage effect and visual effect are gone, then that's even better. maybe we can give the SEAS carnivores a "sharp teeth" upgrade that gives armor piercing damage to melee (bite) attacks of titan, stygimoloch and other carnivorous seas dinosaurs

[ParaworldFan]

mate, executioners are level 4 units

They were, but in current build they are produced level 3. You can go and check it by yourself