Dragon clan nerfs

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MrMorgana
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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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just recently you asked me not to use your discord name on forum, and now this

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ParaworldFan
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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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My bad......forgot about that thing, anyway, screen wasn’t about that

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Suggestion: remove building additional damage from scorpions, they are too universal, compare to powerful armor, regeneration, high damaging ability and building destroying

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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ParaworldFan wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 20:49 pm
Suggestion: remove building additional damage from scorpions, they are too universal, compare to powerful armor, regeneration, high damaging ability and building destroying
What is 'building destroying'? Is it a standalone thing, or just referring to the same thing (i.e.: that it deals bonus damage against buildings)?
Although i can see some basis in your opinion, i think you are way too radical again, and just throwing in suggestion for stuff to be removed completely.
And i don't really agree about it having powerful armor (10/10 by default, and getting +10 by each upgrade, so 40/40 at epoch 5, and spending a fortune on upgrades). I also don't think that regeneration would make the unit too universal, because having it requires sacrificing one slot for potential titans.
But if you have a more well rounded suggestion to balance it's bonus damage against buildings, don't keep it to yourself.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Come one, ridiculous describing about how highly cost is upgrade is vehicles... if people have ability and they need they will do it. Like practice shown, army of scorpions, if enemy don’t have titans with ease destroying any gates, no matter how high their HP. I don’t know Henry how often you play, but I see how Plays Dryfun. He uses whole level 3 scorpions. And they even kill titans with their ability. It does a lot of damage, and compare to how strong they are against building, dragon clan fire cannon becomes useless, because why you neeed waste high cost on this, while you can build cheaper and more effective scorpion....who can fight against anything...

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Suggestion: add debuff -95% attack bonus for pirate ship against buildings. This prevent player to use this for rushing enemy players base

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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ParaworldFan wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:46 am
Come one, ridiculous describing about how highly cost is upgrade is vehicles... if people have ability and they need they will do it. Like practice shown, army of scorpions, if enemy don’t have titans with ease destroying any gates, no matter how high their HP. I don’t know Henry how often you play, but I see how Plays Dryfun. He uses whole level 3 scorpions. And they even kill titans with their ability. It does a lot of damage, and compare to how strong they are against building, dragon clan fire cannon becomes useless, because why you neeed waste high cost on this, while you can build cheaper and more effective scorpion....who can fight against anything...
Now, that about dragon tank is a valid reason :D
Anyways, what i said is not ridiculous at all, but you certainly need to be active, if you let your opponent tech up undisturbed, then ofc resource costs don't play much of a role (we could also make the game having no resource costs at all, and then whoever has the better micro and macro management will win...). If you force the player to make units instead of investing in upgrades, then he can't afford to do so, otherwise you will kill him.
And before i continue, I apologize in advance, and don't take it as an offence: I don't know how much you play, but i'm kinda sure DryFun just plays better than you, so suggesting balance changes based upon how he uses units, buildings, abilities, etc against you don't seem to have much validity. He is an expert, especially with dragon clan, his main tribe is dc. Bringing him up is like people complaining about dustriders, because how TRex plays with them. The other way around, if you win against players like them, because of using scorpions alone, is much more remarkable, and warning.
That ranting about scorpions killing titans don't seem to be a valid reason either (a single scorpion killing multiple titans would be a different story), at least with this amount of detail. I mean, the same is true for other level 3 cavalry units, like battle mammoths can kill titans, even brachios. It all depends on the circumstances. On the contrary, If multiple scorpions wouldn't be able to kill titans, that would be a huge problem. That would mean titans are overpowered, and the player loses, if he has no titans himself.
But okay, the extra damage against buildings really overlaps with tank too much, and shall be removed (or replaced by something else...). For example I still think, that scorpion is not viable enough, and should be buffed somehow...
ParaworldFan wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 13:42 pm
Suggestion: add debuff -95% attack bonus for pirate ship against buildings. This prevent player to use this for rushing enemy players base
-95% is way too much for a level 5, epoch 6 unit, which is a water titan basically. And how on earth can anyone rush with a late-game unit to begin with??? At least rushing means (in my dictionary), that you start the game, and rush the opponent with warriors, bunkers, etc.

Btw, you still didn't really explain how monk's upgraded healing range makes a difference, like how do you win a battle if the opponent's monks have normal healing range, but lose it if they have.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Okay everyone Dummy, Henry and Dryfun pro balancer. I quit....

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Don't take it personally, I only said what I think about the proposed balance changes, and i do the same with the stuff DryFun's suggests (last time about dc trap changes if you remember). Bigger problem is that balance discussion(s) should involve more people and points of view. With only two of us talking about it is not 'healthy'. That shows that most people don't care about it :(

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Agree. That’s why I don’t like idea, that you with Dryfun buffs the Dragon clan without others opinion. Ask other Russian players, they will tell you the same that Dragon clan is the best tribe. Others just shadow

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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We didn't buff dragon clan, instead i buffed all the tribes over a long time, and i also acknowledge some problems.
Other players should come here too, and join the discussion

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Sadly I can’t paste here Changelog. Where listed how many buffs got ninigi_scorpion in last build. Maybe it wasn’t you, but someone really did it.
Abou other players....if I could just tell everyone came here....sadly I can’t xD

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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As i said, i was making the balance changes (not DryFun and me), scorpion included, but not only that unit got changed, and not only dragon clan got changed. And the quantity of changes a single unit or a single tribe gets doesn't really matter. As it seems your problem is that scorpion got too universal. That about bonus damage against building i kinda agree now.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Yes. That’s was the main point. Also I have seen how you increased Norsemen and Dustriders, sadly still Norseman looses Against dragon clan and dustriders. Could probably leave it, but not +100%, like 20-25 I guess will be ok, but I am not sure. Maybe better remove fully, you decided, I just shared with opinion, that as long as scorpion have buff against building, dragon tank is completely useless.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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By rush, I mean that you play on water map, small map....where you leave your base to go attack other enemy base, while I’m this time, the player who you going attack, have full army slots of titans and other strong units and the gratin clan player, having only one unit of epoch 6, like pirate ship able to go and destroy whole base, and you can do nothing about that, because your army already fighting with this player land army, and your army slots full, so you don’t have chance to build fleet. Even if you start build it, the pirate ship immediately destroy it. Due highh attack frequency (much faster than original) high and the main thing splash damage, it can in short time causes a lot of problems, by killing workers destroy economic, killing traders, workers, tents, warehouses, fabric. Even if player had chance to build a few ankylosis, due high Hp it’s will not save the base. The main problem is that against this ship effective only fleet, like ship rams or something just like this. And people usually don’t make it because they need slots, for usual army. And when this ship comes producing fleet is too late, only chance too kill it if you have some strong units on base or ready produced fleet. Towers not much helpful, well maybe except seas ones. Maybe dragon clan can survive due land mines, but other tribes, mostly dustriders it’s a death. So, that’s why I suggested to add debuff against buildings for this ship, I would also recommended to reduce its attack frequency to original stats or close to them.
By monks, I just mentioned that healing upgrade is high, and with combination of Titan slots, titans are hardly killable. It’s mostly for every tribe, not only dragon clan. This titans only dying from large army of two more players or defense buildings. That seems not good, as I think.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Btw maybe kinda off topic, but I have sen weird thing that you maybe would like to know. I noticed that brachiosaurus while by stina level 5 bonus, somehow lowering their armour if being leveled up from level 3 to 4 or 5. For example range armour was on level 3 85 and on 4 level it’s decreased to 65. Is that the bug, or it’s balance twist?

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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ParaworldFan wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 13:21 pm
By rush, I mean that you play on water map, small map....where you leave your base to go attack other enemy base, while I’m this time, the player who you going attack, have full army slots of titans and other strong units and the gratin clan player, having only one unit of epoch 6, like pirate ship able to go and destroy whole base, and you can do nothing about that, because your army already fighting with this player land army, and your army slots full, so you don’t have chance to build fleet. Even if you start build it, the pirate ship immediately destroy it. Due highh attack frequency (much faster than original) high and the main thing splash damage, it can in short time causes a lot of problems, by killing workers destroy economic, killing traders, workers, tents, warehouses, fabric. Even if player had chance to build a few ankylosis, due high Hp it’s will not save the base. The main problem is that against this ship effective only fleet, like ship rams or something just like this. And people usually don’t make it because they need slots, for usual army. And when this ship comes producing fleet is too late, only chance too kill it if you have some strong units on base or ready produced fleet. Towers not much helpful, well maybe except seas ones. Maybe dragon clan can survive due land mines, but other tribes, mostly dustriders it’s a death. So, that’s why I suggested to add debuff against buildings for this ship, I would also recommended to reduce its attack frequency to original stats or close to them.
By monks, I just mentioned that healing upgrade is high, and with combination of Titan slots, titans are hardly killable. It’s mostly for every tribe, not only dragon clan. This titans only dying from large army of two more players or defense buildings. That seems not good, as I think.

Okay, that about pirateship seems to be a legit problem, both the attack frequency and that is destroys bases easily (but i think that it should remain a threatening unit).
ParaworldFan wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 13:39 pm
Btw maybe kinda off topic, but I have sen weird thing that you maybe would like to know. I noticed that brachiosaurus while by stina level 5 bonus, somehow lowering their armour if being leveled up from level 3 to 4 or 5. For example range armour was on level 3 85 and on 4 level it’s decreased to 65. Is that the bug, or it’s balance twist?
Not balance twist, and should be investigated, so if you have a save state, when this happens, share it with me.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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I have screenshots which proves difference in armor of same brachiosaurus. I will upload them as long, as logging out problem will be solved.
I agree that Pirate ship should stay threat, for land army and fleet and camp, but still somehow it should be changed. Btw if you wanna know my opinion problem will be perfectly solved, if we had the another panel of army slots, about 12 units for example, and it will be available only for ships. That bring gameplay on really new level, but I don’t know if it’s possible to make.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Proving screenshots of brachio bug
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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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I'd love to join the discussions but tbh i haven't (properly) played PW in ages and would be of little use.

In the base game (before Mirage, CEP, etc.) the issue with DC was that they are indeed too strong in the lategame. Just like NM were strong in earlygame and DR were strong in midgame. The strategy vs DC was to kick their arse before they reached critical mass, so to speak.
Which I always thought was stupid. So we're going in the right direction.

IIRC the Lacerate attack does 350 armor piercing damage, times 8 would make it an AoE nuke of 2800 damage if all scorpions attacked at the same time. Would roughly halve enemy titan's hit points. That is heavy indeed.
But IIRC the scorpion has 700 food cost, which is quite high too. Higher than an NM battle mammoth for example.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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And Norseman battle mammoth compare to the scorpions is really weak and doesn’t deal armor piercing. Mostly all Norseman units just fat tanks with lot of armor and health, but they deal very less damage and they are slow.
While scorpions deal good damage, with AP(armorpiercing) and their ability which used altogether and usually on one target which deals also splash damage is much effective than mammoths ones. Plus, Taslow regeneration also buffers scorpions.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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To be honest, if you allow your one big unit (like titan) to be surrounded by 6-8 scorpions, which are slow (speed 2) and can attack only in close combat, you pretty much deserve the consequences. If your enemy has chosen to invest AC slots, time and resources in that particular army composition, you can easily kite them by ranged units (even archers on transport baskets).
Scorpion's bonus damage against buildings will be removed and the amount of healing from Taslow's regeneration will be a bit nerfed to make them less universal, so you will only need to react appropriately if you see your opponent using them.

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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MrMorgana wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:31 am
To be honest, if you allow your one big unit (like titan) to be surrounded by 6-8 scorpions, which are slow (speed 2) and can attack only in close combat, you pretty much deserve the consequences. If your enemy has chosen to invest AC slots, time and resources in that particular army composition, you can easily kite them by ranged units (even archers on transport baskets).
Scorpion's bonus damage against buildings will be removed and the amount of healing from Taslow's regeneration will be a bit nerfed to make them less universal, so you will only need to react appropriately if you see your opponent using them.
Let’ see this in combat than :D

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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You have to factor in attack speed. If there are two units fighting each other and one of them deals only 50% of the damage the other one deals, it will still win if it attacks more than twice as fast. Battle mammoths attack 37 times per second for a total of 37*50=1850 damage per minute while scorpions attack 30 times per second for a total of 30*50=1500 damage per minute. Factoring in the blades upgrade which gives 15 extra damage you get 37*65=2405 damage per second for the mammoth.

For the armor, you can do a similar calculation and see how much HP a unit has when adjusted for armor (correcting again for armor piercing attacks).

Plus, the mammoth can reduce its enemies' attack damage by 20% for a few moments. The NM battle mammoth is one of my favourite units. :)

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Re: Dragon clan nerfs

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Scrat wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:39 am
You have to factor in attack speed. If there are two units fighting each other and one of them deals only 50% of the damage the other one deals, it will still win if it attacks more than twice as fast. Battle mammoths attack 37 times per second for a total of 37*50=1850 damage per minute while scorpions attack 30 times per second for a total of 30*50=1500 damage per minute. Factoring in the blades upgrade which gives 15 extra damage you get 37*65=2405 damage per second for the mammoth.

For the armor, you can do a similar calculation and see how much HP a unit has when adjusted for armor (correcting again for armor piercing attacks).

Plus, the mammoth can reduce its enemies' attack damage by 20% for a few moments. The NM battle mammoth is one of my favourite units. :)
Never seen this been worked vs Dragon clan Being honestly. Maybe probably because scorpion ability?

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